Posts by Joe Grundy

28

JW apologetics websites.

by Steel in

lately i have been studying some basic christology and jesus in the old testament and why first christians believed jesus was god in the flesh.

really interesting stuff.

i am not really sure if i fully understand it but i do now realize why pastors go to university and bible school for a number of years and also how their beliefs are not just based on a few verses that can be edited in the nwt.

Joe Grundy

Yes, and to put it into context, that was about 300 years -repeat 300 years - after the first beliefs were formed. At a time when there were no universal media, no printing, no, well whatever.

Those interested in these things might find it interesting to look at a modern english language greek orthodox bible, which will generally include a lengthy introduction explaining the great schism about 1000 years ago.

My personal view is that there never has been a united view of what 'christians' believe, it has always been subject to and open to interpretations. This is evident through the gospels - and they were written at the minimum 30 years after jesus' death.

Again, this is about history, not theology.

28

JW apologetics websites.

by Steel in

lately i have been studying some basic christology and jesus in the old testament and why first christians believed jesus was god in the flesh.

really interesting stuff.

i am not really sure if i fully understand it but i do now realize why pastors go to university and bible school for a number of years and also how their beliefs are not just based on a few verses that can be edited in the nwt.

Joe Grundy

OP: "why first Christians believed Jesus was god in the flesh."

I think you'll find when you research this in depth - and IMO Ehrman is a good starting point - that there never was a consistent and common belief amongst the earliest followers. There were many competing views, and there's good reason to think that even during his lifetime followers in different geographical locations had different understandings and emphases regarding his teachings.

The 'unanimity of beliefs' of the 'first christians' seems to me to be a myth, although so many groups claim to know it and follow it.

This is to do with history, not theology.

9

Catching up on the A.R.C.

by The Searcher in

i haven't been here for several days, so apologies if similar comments have been posted regarding messrs spinks' & o'brien's "spiritual & scriptural" replies to the australian royal commission last week.. perhaps this line of questioning by mr. stewart could have helped exposed the org's corruption of the "two witness" rule:.

mr stewart: mr. spinks, does the jehovah's witnesses' leadership base their "two witness" rule solely on the bible?.

mr. spinks: yes.

Joe Grundy

(I never was a JW).

An excellent video, I thought, which highlights the dishonest evidence presented to ARC by Spinks and O'Toole (I hope/believe that the discrepancy will have been pointed out and understood by Mr Stewart and his team(.

JW dot org can produce all the propaganda it likes, but to see these twats, and Jackson and the 'head JW lawyer' in action shows just how deficient they are in so many ways.

16

At what point were you taught about disfellowshipping? What page in the current study book is it covered?

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

even thinking about born-ins here.

at what stage of your 'bible teaching' were you taught about the practice of disfellowshipping?.

reading john cedars book and the section about when the more crazy shit gets introduced to you is very telling.

Joe Grundy

(I never was a JW).

I think that the latest episode of the ARC taking evidence from Spinks and O'Brien (the leaders of WT in Australia) and the questions and reactions from Angus Stewart SC and HHJ Peter McClellan tell you all you need to know about the practice of shunning.

IMHO it should be required viewing for anyone 'studying' or contemplating joining this cult.

99

January 19, 2017 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN WALES Re: Prerecorded Memorial and Special Talk 2017 - Welsh

by wifibandit in

january 19, 2017 to all bodies of elders in wales re: prerecorded memorial and special talk 2017 - welsh.

Joe Grundy

In a response to 'Richard Oliver' on another thread I started my remarks with 'with respect'. I withdraw that. He is, IMHO, talking uninformed apologist bollocks.

You don't have to take my word for it (well, you do, of course - this is the internet!) but I discussed this with my daughter-in-law's parents. They live in the area and their first (and predominant - they tolerate me) language is Welsh. I showed them this property, explained its purported use and their laughter and expletives were multi-lingual.

Now then, just to explain a little bit about the use of Welsh and English (bear with me, it;ll help me to make my later point). Wales is not (never has been) a united country. Many local rivalries persist, with accusations of 'you're not really Welsh, we are'. The Welsh spoken in north Wales can be quite different from that spoken in the south, and both can differ from that spoken in the west (where I live). There is, nowadays, an ;official' Welsh which can confuse everyody.

My grand-daughters (7 & 5) attend a Welsh medium school (i.e. all lessons are taught in Welsh). They have homework reading books in both Welsh and English and use the languages interchangeably. At home they mostly speak Welsh with their Mum, with me we use English or they translate for me and we mix it about a bit (my Welsh is limited).

There are very very few people in Wales now who don't have working English. There are still, of course, some Welsh language chapels - I have a good friend who is a minister of some - but it's a matter of preference and they're dying out.

The Welsh language has become a bit of a political issue. All official documents, road signs, etc., are bilingual. There is official funding to promote Welsh.

So I come to my point. The property that WT bought is, by any reasonable standard, a 'luxury' property, much over=specified for its purported use, especially in a university town where far more suitable and far cheaper properties were available. I also suspect that WT may be in receipt of government subsidies for 'promotion of the Welsh language'.

Just to make it clear, I think RO is talking apolgetic bollocks,

Hwyl fawr!

144

2.16.2017 NJ Star-Ledger Ad: "Were you sexually abused by the Jehovahs Witnesses?"

by breakfast of champions in

my wife found this 1/4 page ad on page 2 of yesterday's nj star-ledger, probably the biggest newspaper in nj.

pretty telling.. .

Joe Grundy

I am not qualified (in its widest sense) to comment on US law, but I was a UK police officer for 30 years and dealt with abuse and safeguarding issues,

Richard Oliver's comments are, I respectfully submit, a deflection. To take his points in reverse order:

'Fiduciary duty' generally means a duty of care to others in relation to money, property and related matters. Thus, the directors of a company have a fiduciary duty to its shareholders to protect their interests, an investment broker has a duty to those whose assets he manages, etc. Not really relevant here.

'Warn and protect': yes, this is relevant of course to safeguarding but is not the main issue here.

I suspect that the main points of cases against against WT will be the way in which reports (and well-founded suspicions) of abuse have been (and, it seems, continue to be) dealt with. No need to go over it again, but this includes:

Interview of victim by unqualified exclusively male JWs

Two witness rule

Failure to report to authorities (thus opening up avenues of support)

JC procedures

failure to provide any measure of protection to victims or to consider further potential victims

and so on.

These failures have now been exposed and are, without doubt, accepted to fall far short of acceptable practice and are, I believe, actionable at law.

Sworn testimony given to ARC by JW people in authority provided evidence of this. I don't think it was accidental that the way the SC to ARC progressed his questioning showed that the policies and procedures emanated not from local hierarchy but from the GB - and that they applied world-wide from a highly-centralised and high-control organisation.

Evidence to ARC probably won't be admissible in US courts, of course, but it provides an excellent starting point for lawyers taking depositions in the US from US JW hierarchy.

WT HQ/GB has, it seems to me, for a long time exercised minute control over JWs world-wide, micro-managing to a fine degree. Maybe now this will come back to bite them on the ass. Jackson and others (eg Toole) made fools of themselves before ARC. If that sort of performance is repeated before juries with the power to award damages I foresee big problems for WT. And I can foresee other 'tort' legal firms joining up.

Just my opinion, of course. Could be the basis for another John Grisham book.

207

Honest Questions About Child Abuse

by Richard Oliver in

i have two honest questions for everyone here.

i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

Joe Grundy

I never was a JW.

I was a police officer (most of it a detective) for 30 years. I dealt with many cases - more than I wish to remember and some which haunt me still - of child abuse and child sexual abuse. There is no need to elaborate.

What concerns me most when I look at the WT setup is how the institutional organisation facilitates the abuse and its cover-up.

I have been extremely encouraged by the work of ARC and have confidence that it will bring about change. History shows that Royal Commissions are meaningful and effective.

To WTBTS I would give this message (in the vernacular): fuck with ARC at your peril.

18

OT - Pork was unclean... NT Now it's not?

by pleaseresearch in

this always baffled me.

either pork is unclean and wrong to eat forever, or it was a load of bull to begin with..

Joe Grundy

You might find this interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOPd80FN2ew&t=1471s

Worth watching in its entirety.

11

Numbers 31:17 and 18

by schnell in

now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

but all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.. *sigh*.

it's not that i haven't seen this passage before.

Joe Grundy

This the link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b084bmgs

It made me think, to be honest. When I was brought up, OT characters were portrayed in fluffy striped blanket robes, wandering around with their sheep and goats doing yhwh stuff.

Now picture them in ISIS type gear, moving in to towns and villages, seeking out those who believed different to them, worshiping different gods and so on. Seizing and carrying off young girls/women as prizes of war. Beheading their enemy, burning their settlements, enslaving those they didn't kill.

But they were guided and commanded by their god, yhwh, and today they are celebrated and remembered.

Something to think about as we approach xmas and the old OT bits are read out.

11

Numbers 31:17 and 18

by schnell in

now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

but all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.. *sigh*.

it's not that i haven't seen this passage before.

Joe Grundy

There was a very interesting BBC R4 documentary yesterday evening about women who left a 'closed' orthodox Jewish community in the UK. This community may actually end up being the largest Jewish community because of their strict rules, it seems.

It included arranged marriage, women losing their children if they leave the community and day-to-day stuff. For example, covering their hair (no, that didn't start with Muslims). Ordinarily, the women wear wigs. The most observant wear wigs AND hats.

You may recall bits in the OT about menstruating women being 'unclean'. In this community they have ritual bath-houses where women must attend to ritually bathe after their period - after they have used white cloths inserted vaginally to confirm the end of the flow. In any case of doubt the Rabbi is called in.

This community regard themselves as the 'true' Jews who are following their laws. Listening to this was an eye-opener for me.